Angelqueen.org

[servitium]

AQ Exclusive:

Karl Keating's un-Catholic answers

Our unpleasant experience with the founder of Catholic Answers

By John Grasmeier
Angelqueen.org
July 10, 2005

An html "hardcopy" of this article is available here.

Karl Keating, founder of “Catholic Answers� is a man who has attained a high degree of personal success instructing others on how to become good Catholics. As is often discovered by those who've had close encounters with him, it may be a good idea for Karl to spend less time teaching Catholic virtue and more time learning it.

One afternoon last week, while perusing the Angelqueen forum I noticed at the bottom of the page it read “the newest registered member is Karl Keating�. This of course caused my eyebrow to bend. As most Catholics who pay attention to all things Catholic already know, Keating is the former attorney and current apologetics industry author who founded Catholic Answers (website).

My first thought upon seeing Mr. Keating’s name was “what’s he doing here?� My second thought was that this was some type of internet joke initiated by some type of internet joker. I then shot an email to Karl asking him to verify the account or it would be deleted. Mindful of the fact that AQ posters can play rough at times, I then created a thread asking everyone to treat Karl (if this was in fact he) charitably should he happen post to the forum. Given his well-deserved reputation as a virulent anti-traditionalist, I feared the membership would be tempted to turn Mr. Keating into an afternoon snack. After all, perhaps he had come in peace or was seeking to contribute something useful to the forum.

Okay, so I'm naive.

It wasn't long before I received a one-line response to the verification email from Karl that read "It's me. I just started a new thread", which confirmed that we weren't dealing with an internet joke. Unfortunately, the thread Mr. Keating posted failed to confirm to that we weren't dealing with an internet joker.

Thou Shalt not kid Karl

What prompted Karl's registration and subsequent posting on Angelqueen was a rebuttal by one of our members to Karl's E-letter titled "Feast and Famine." In it, Karl rightfully protests the watering down of our fasting laws and feast days. The rebuttal by our member was a mostly innocuous and rather humorous point by point examination of Karl's article, in which "Pascendi" (his AQ screen name) points out how odd it was that Karl had suddenly found his inner disillusioned-traditionalist, considering that he and those in his realm have spent a good part of the last decade savaging many of us for being outer disillusioned-traditionalists. The thread while generating a few laughs, didn't get much action and Pascendi a few comments down apologized for any perceived lack of charity, although he really had nothing to apologize for.

None of us at that time were aware that Karl happened to be lurking on Angelqueen and that he knew Pascendi and his family personally. He apparently didn't take well to Pascendi's sense of humor and decided to respond.

Now... one would tend to think that someone of Mr. Keating's prominence would have neither the time nor the inclination to concern himself with internet chatter, even if the subject of that chatter happened to be one of his writings. One would also think that if he somehow did concern himself with such minutia, he would deal with it in a wise and charitable manner befitting a high profile representative of our faith. This however was not to be the case, as Keating chose not to betray his reputation as someone with personality issues given to wrathful bullying.

Upon reading the thread Karl referred to in his confirmation email, I was immediately outraged. It became clear within the first few sentences that Mr. Keating's motive was not to intelligently address anything on the Angelqueen forum written by him or anyone else, but to exact a price from Pascendi for having fun at his expense. As retribution for intellectually challenging and poking fun at Karl Keating, Pascendi would now suffer the consequence of having his and his family's previously private identifying information exposed.

In the article Karl "blessed" us with, he not only revealed in a very contrived and purposeful fashion Pascendi's first and last name, but that of his wife as well. He also mentioned his parents and siblings, one of whom is a priest. I and many others happen to know Pascendi's mom and one of his sisters online by their screen names. If I hadn't immediately gone through Karl's post and redacted it, anyone and everyone clicking in would now know them along with everyone else Karl mentioned by their family name. For good measure Karl threw in the "Pascendi" family hometown. Hey you never know, there might be someone lurking with phone book, a search engine or a grudge who may want to take a minute to look them up.

Never mind that these folks may have been using screen names and chose to remain anonymous for good reason, we're talking Karl Keating here - renowned Catholic apologetics guru. A family's online privacy is a small price to pay when a man of his stature is trying to teach an uppity forum poster a lesson. This nonsense was no innocent mistake or even poor judgment. Later on Karl makes it audaciously clear that his intention was a retributive, albeit unsuccessful attempt to embarrass Pascendi for "attacking" him.

"I am sure he would not have appreciated the unseemliness of attacking someone who always had treated him well--but he might appreciate it if he came in for some public embarrassment."

My standards apply to thee, but not me

Ever since internet forums and chat rooms came into existence, revealing someone's personal identifying information without his or her consent has been considered taboo, you just don't do it. Anyone who has frequented online discussion outlets for more than a day learns this quickly, if they don't already know it instinctively. Mr. Keating made it clear that the ethics employed as second nature by eleven year old gamers aren't shared by the middle-aged president of Catholic Answers, who also happens to be the owner of a large forum himself.
Outrageously, Mr. Keating's own rules on his own Catholic Answers forum strictly forbid the type of unseemly behavior he demonstrated on the Angelqueen forum. At the top of every forum at CA is a moderator post informing visitors that private information is a "banned topic". You're not even permitted to ask another user's age or income, much less any distinct identifying info. In the same "banned topic" paragraph it states clearly that posters are to "focus on the issues and not the personalities of fellow participants." Here are a few more "do nots" from his forum rules area:

CONTENT RULES
4. Do not post others’ e-mail addresses, private messages, or private e-mail sent by them unless they give you permission to do so.
6. Do not post material from unapproved private revelations.
7. Do not post personal phone numbers and addresses.

PRIVATE MESSAGING
1. If you have something to say to an individual member that is not of general interest to the board, use the private messaging system.


It seems that when Mr. Keating enters someone else's house, the guidelines and ethics he insists others live by when in his house no longer apply.

Fear and Loathing

The reaction by our members to the mini-circus Karl paraded into Angelqueen ran from outrage to concern for their privacy and even concern for their safety. Nearly everyone, regardless of whether they enjoyed his work or previously viewed Karl and/or Catholic Answers in a positive light, was puzzled by his incredible lack of class. Some posters told stories detailing the negative experiences they've had when someone was privy to their identity. Several others requested (in the forum and in private) that I change their screen name or remove their account altogether. Mr. Keating had caused them to realize that some people - people who think like Mr. Keating - may attempt to use their personal information against them.

Karl attempted to justify his behavior with the following statement:

"I do not think much of hiding behind a pseudonym. I understand why some people feel it prudent to do so, given what they write. They know that what they anonymously put in print would shame them if it could be associated with them."

It's glaringly apparent that Karl doesn't "think much". He doesn't think much about the single mom who may not care to be "Googled-up" by a vengeful or even violent ex. It seems he never bothered to consider that there are folks in sensitive career situations who don't relish giving web-goons a potential method of access to their superiors, employees or clientele. Karl doesn't "think much" of clergy, politicians, or leaders of organizations who are in situations where their views are considered thought crime. He doesn't think much of those who simply don't feel their identifying information is anyone's business for a myriad of personal or even legal reasons, one being that someone might use the information to settle a score - as Karl did with Pascendi.

You see Karl, not everyone's perspective is that of an apologetics industry mogul selling luxury cruises. What you think of the long held and ubiquitous practice of internet anonymity is irrelevant.

One email I received was particularly troubling. It was sent by an old man living in the UK who has lived a rich and very faithful Catholic life, but also has experienced acrimony and even outright persecution as a result of the political and religious landscape in the area where he lives. In his world, the things people do and say could result in real-life consequences. He wrote me a long, heart rendering email which I won't share, except for the following Keating-inspired excerpt:

"I wish to have my name and e-mail address removed from the list of members. I am very unhappy at the way things are 'progressing' in the forums. Not your fault, I know. I do know that you try to keep things in order. But as I used my real name and location and could be found very easily, I am concerned to what purpose some might use this information."

Thank you Mr. Keating, for your contribution to our forum. Since Angelqueen was founded, I've only had to ban Russian spammers, porn site operators, black market drug salesmen and two trolls who signed on with the specific intent of disrupting the forum. Welcome to their ranks. Your distinction is that you're the first "serious" (for lack of a better term) member of Angelqueen who has ever acted egregiously enough to warrant a perm-ban.

Congratulations. For causing us to lose posters and inspiring those you've encountered here to have a little less faith in humanity (in your humanity anyway) you have earned the honor of becoming the first inductee into the Angelqueen Contemplative Monastery. There you will serve as an example to others on how not to behave when posting on a Catholic forum, or better still, how not to behave as a Catholic.

[And now...]

[Sock]

<CENTER>

DOES NOT ENDORSE

</CENTER>

[EddieArent]

[te lucis]

[sgnofcross]

Servitium said:

[Silver]

Great article. I think I am one of the very few who read the pre-redacted Keating Thread. ( 8-) hummm "pre-redacted" I'll have to remember this one for a future screen name) The article above is a good summary of the facts. I had just read the call for charity and was totally taken back by the Keating thread. As a neophyte I had not yet heard of Mr. Keating and so had no preconceived idea of his character. After reading his thread I was sure I could have gone through life in perfect bliss without that little bit of information. "What on earth is one to think of a person who needs such a call for charity"; was my first thought prior to reading Mr. Keating's thread. "I see now" was my reaction after.

Nothing like living down to your reputation.

Now we have the honor of many new posters here on AQ. Allow me to express to all the soy sauce challenged flying monkeys my heart felt welcome.

I guess Mr. Keating will have to come up with a new screening method for job interviews. Pity
_________________
BEWARE OF ERRORS OUT OF RUSSIA
Mark in the Old South

[sgnofcross]

I have a confession to make! I know who Sock really is. I even have a picture of him:


Señor Sock

[John314]

[Eulogius]

<p>Gotcha, Mr. Keating...

[latinmass]

Great Article!

[james]

Great article, servitium. I was away for the past week and just spent the last couple of hours catching up on the Keating threads. Looks like it started, flashed, and finished in that short span of time.

Apparently, this would play into the whole "evil trad" perception that many anti-Trads perpetuate. "Karl only posted 3 times before he was banned on that Trad forum. See how evil they are!"

But perceptions, like opinions are a dime a dozen. I think I will crack open a bottle of soy sauce as a tribute to new forum member Robert Sungenis, and any other person out there who has been subjected to Mr. Keating's mind games.

pascendi, my hat goes off to you, sir, for your grace and even-handedness in dealing with this situation.
_________________
U.I.O.G.D.
Ut In Omnibus Glorificetur Deus

[Dr. Brian Kopp]

[Dolorosa]

Given his well-deserved reputation as a virulent anti-traditionalist, I feared the membership would be tempted to turn Mr. Keating into an afternoon snack. After all, perhaps he had come in peace or was seeking to contribute something useful to the forum.

I was I saw his name and thought I'd see some intelligent discussions going on and just saw a personal attack on a member. What a shame!
_________________
http://romancatholicheroes.blogspot.com/

[Sock]

Brian,

Although most of us choose to operate anonymously, nevertheless, in time, personalities will inevitably manifest themselves on these types of message boards. The fact that there are so many posters here with lots of different personality types makes for a very interesting site. Unlike the religion forum of FR, nobody will accuse us of being “Stepford Catholics.�

Clashes between individuals with strong personalities can occur anywhere including within a monastery. I know this is true from the personal writings of St. Teresa of Avila.

My point in this is that if Carmelite nuns living in a monastery during the 16th century could have there own little “disagreements,� why can’t we? The key is that, like them, we can get over it, not lose our focus and continue to work without worrying about what happened in the past.

I believe you’re a good guy, faithful to Christ who has done and continues to do a lot for the Body of Christ.

We all make mistakes and we both will continue to do so. I am also sorry I was so rough with you the other day.

Who knows what the future will bring? But, if we ever meet at a Japanese restaurant (strangers things have happened), I promise to not only buy your lunch but I will not be upset if you decide to use soy sauce on your white rice.

[Dr. Brian Kopp]

[sgnofcross]

Welcome back, Brian! I'm happy to see you returned. God bless.

[murph]

Servitium - good article. I hope Seattle Catholic and the Remnant pick it up as a link.

And may I take this opportunity to thank-you for providing this forum; it is greatly appreciated.

murph

[Dr. Brian Kopp]

[sgnofcross]

ROFLOL!!!

[servitium]

Keating's mug shot and rap sheet HERE

[Former ECUSA Now Catholic]

[AlbionGirl]

AAABEST,

Great article, great website, thanks and God bless.

[JDobbs]

JMJ

This was a very enlightening article - at least to me. I always try to assume the best in others (which can be hard to maintain as a Trad), but KK made his intentions clear: it was not for fruitful dialogue. If we were, in fact, on the trajectory to schism (whatever that means), he is acting like he wants us to go to hell. If that's not true, Mr. Keating can apologize to Pascendi and start a thread debating the merits of our respective stances. Until then, he has more than proved ill will.

Sock, I apologize for being a little thin skinned. Let's bury the hatchet.
_________________
Now starring as Redbeard the Pirate, suitor of Rapunzel

[servitium]

[Dr. Brian Kopp]

[JDobbs]

JMJ

What Brian said.
_________________
Now starring as Redbeard the Pirate, suitor of Rapunzel

[MilesChristi]

Some people in Germany (myself included) were trying to create a Catholic apologetics website, and we found some good articles posted at Catholic Answers. Naive as I was then, I contacted them to ask their permission to do so. The permission would only be granted on very strange terms. The answers I got from my contact person there were really un-Christian-like. Since then, I have "seen the light" concerning what somebody here called "apologetics industry".
Miles Christi
Germany

[servitium]

Nice to see you again Miles. I have a great deal of respect for Europeans such as yourself who learn English so well.

[Sock]

Thanks, Dobbs. I apologize also.

[sgnofcross]

Catholic Answers Permission Guidelines:

http://www.catholic.com/home/permissions.asp

[murph]

[novice1]

Okay guys and gals; we've had enough fun at Karl's expense. Let's offer up some prayers and sacrifices for him and his family. Maybe he'll continue to visit us and take some good from our satire. Maybe ol' Karl will find a deeper sense of what Catholicism is and will always be. Maybe we won't see headlines like "Karl Keating's un-Catholic answers" and maybe we'll start seeing "Karl Keating says Pope Should wear the Triple Tiara". Just Pray folks.

[servitium]

Dear Totus, Brian, Hedwig, Sock, Pascendi.

I've removed everything past Novice's good Christian advice, including my posts. So I guess we all just wasted our time hacking at each other.

Whether it's my carping, totus' spiritual immaturity, hedwig's hostility, the BLEEP!'s rebelliousness, Brian's anger or Sock's brusqueness - we're called to be long suffering and will treat each other as Catholics should.

We will learn how to suffer each other and move forward more cohesively, or we'll be wasting time. Our own time and each other's.

As for Karl, I'll suffer him if he'll do the same with us. If he simply apologizes to Pascendi, I'll restore his account immediately.

[maranatha]

Here I am Karl. Just try to take away my Duff.

[pascendi]

I am now banned from Catholic Answers. Didn't take much at all; copy saved.

[servitium]

[pascendi]

Nope; no further than that. I browsed around and came back to it very short time later, and it won't let me even view the forum at all.

It says this:

<i>Emerald, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post or access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.</i>

[servitium]

Were you banned by your niece? LOL

This is what bothered people about Karl's post. The moderation over there is so tightly wound and arbitrary, yet he logs in here and behaves like a 14 year old trolling a "Grand Theft Auto" board.

In some strange way, I almost respect him for it. He somehow wasn't proud enough not to act like some common jerk.

[pascendi]

[voxmilitant]

Mr. Keating is just Another example of the Church Of Love!..Heres a little Traditionalist "ra ra" to inspire us True Faithfull!
No, Venerable Brethren, We must repeat with the utmost energy in these times of social and intellectual anarchy when everyone takes it upon himself to teach as a teacher and lawmaker - the City cannot be built otherwise than as God has built it;…… society cannot be setup unless the Church lays the foundations and supervises the work;….. no, civilization is not something yet to be found, nor is the New City to be built on hazy notions; it has been in existence and still is: it is Christian civilization, it is the Catholic City. It has only to be set up and restored continually against the unremitting attacks of insane dreamers, rebels and miscreants. OMNIA INSTAURARE IN CHRISTO.

Karl the Miscreant
By the way Karl if you want my name and address just ask maybe you could visit this hot headed slovaK! Foe a MANLY discussion

[tradcath1]

[EddieArent]

"No authority, not even the highest in the hierarchy, can compel us to abandon or dimiinish our Catholic faith, so clearly expressed and professed by the Church's Magisterium for nineteen centuries." Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre


Good to see new members here! Welcome.

[JDobbs]

[Holyhill]

See the cruise Karl is organing for a Catholic apologetic conference.

It seems puerta vaharta mexico is one of the port calls.

Go to Novus Ordo Watch and click on Archives.

[bknotts]

This whole episode was disappointing. We all make mistakes, but my respect for Mr. Keating, and by extension Catholic Answers, has certainly been damaged.

[MilesChristi]

[penitent99]

[Petertherock]

Talk about a bump from the past. I was banned from unCatholic answers years ago for I don't know what. I guess I was just too much of a rad trad for them and that was before I started going to the Latin Mass on a regular basis lol. A year or so ago I tried to get an answer as to why I was banned so I created a sock puppet account just to get in contact with a mod or admin to find out exactly what the ban was for. I was then threatened with a law suit if I create any more sock puppet accounts. I replied back something to the effect of that's how a real Catholic would handle things! Of course I have been threatened with law suits by better people then him and I wasn't intimidated with them and I certainly wasn't intimidated by UnCatholic Asnwers.
_________________
Darryl
Ut In Omnibus Glorificetur Deus

[Adorer]

[Petertherock]