Angelqueen.org

[murph]

Latin for the masses: Society of St. Pius X concerns Catholic diocese



In Forum News
Sherri Richards
10/20/05
Link to original (registration required)


Fargo diocese officials are warning parishioners not to attend an unauthorized Latin Mass offered by an international Catholic society.

Rome considers the Society of St. Pius X to be schismatic, or divided from the church.

But a priest with the society disagrees. The Rev. Paul Kimball said the group is preserving traditional Catholic doctrine.

The society rejects the 1960s Second Vatican Council, which led to wide-reaching reform in the church. It believes these changes, such as in worship services, endanger the Catholic Church, Kimball said.

Kimball, based in Browerville, Minn., is pastor of the society’s Our Lady of Sorrows Catholic Church in Crookston, Minn. He said the society has seven missions in Minnesota and four in the Dakotas.

“We don’t want to become a parallel Catholic church,� said Kimball, ordained as a priest by the society in 1989. “We go to these missions because we say the Catholic priests are not doing their job.�



Four times a year, he leads a Latin Mass at the Cash Wise Community Center in Fargo.

The next service will be 9 a.m. Sunday.

Faithful drive as far as three hours to the Crookston church – a converted furniture store – for Sunday afternoon Mass, Kimball said. About 75 to 100 people attend on average, he said.

Donna Baer of Glyndon, Minn., said she attends Our Lady of Sorrows because the Catholic faith is taught there without compromise.

“The Mass that the church has always said is still being said there,� she said. “Catholics there believe what the church has always taught.�

It’s an hour drive one way for Baer’s family. She said it’s nice to have the service closer to home occasionally. It’s an opportunity for area residents who can’t travel that far to attend.

But diocese officials worry the society is misleading faithful who believe the Mass is part of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Fargo diocese issued a letter of caution regarding the Mass earlier this year. The Rev. Joseph Goering, diocese chancellor, attended the June service in Fargo and told Kimball he did not have authority to hear confessions.

“They are not acting within the communion of the Catholic Church,� Goering said. “It looks Catholic, but it is not in union with the Catholic Church.�

The bishop of the Crookston diocese issued a similar statement last year after the society mailed postcards to Crookston residents. Bishop Victor Balke wrote a letter to the town’s newspaper explaining the church has not remained Roman Catholic.

“No faithful Catholic … will attend Our Lady of Sorrows Church,� he wrote.

This week, Balke said that members of the church would not be allowed to have a funeral Mass in the Crookston cathedral or any church in his jurisdiction.

“Our faithful Catholic people should in no way be a part of that group,� he said.

The society was founded in 1970 by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in Switzerland. Its goal was to preserve the customs of the Catholic priesthood pre-Vatican II, which initiated far-reaching reforms in the Catholic Church.

Society leaders were excommunicated by Pope John Paul II in 1988 when Lefebvre consecrated four bishops without Rome’s approval. The society says its excommunication was invalid.

Kimball said the society does not want to usurp the power of local clergy. Members profess loyalty to the pontiff.

“We do obey the pope whenever he tells us to do the traditional things,� Kimball said.

But they resist papal actions they do not believe are traditional, such as allowing nuns to wear clothing other than habits and promoting relations with other faiths.

The society is then seen as disobedient, Kimball said, but is trying to keep the faith.

“We are being persecuted because we refused to go along with the reform that’s destroying the Catholic Church,� Kimball said.

But Goering said the society doesn’t have the right to define what the Catholic Church is.

“He’s saying ‘I understand the mind of Christ,’ and the Holy Father, all bishops with him, do not,� Goering said.

Goering said he doesn’t believe the society is acting with evil intent, but the members are misguided.

“It’s a disagreement among what should be the family of Christ,� he said.

Goering said Catholics interested in the society long for the wonder and awe they experienced during Latin Mass.

Priests can still celebrate Mass in Latin, if they use the new rite. But Goering said he wants parishioners to find that holiness within the church now.

“I’d rather they worshipped in communion with the Roman Catholic Church and make it stronger,� he said.


Readers can reach Forum reporter Sherri Richards at (701) 241-5525

[And now...]

[murph]

Oh brother. Don't tell me this diocese has nothing better to be "concerned" about.

[Sam]

Schismatic-Puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!

[murph]

[T. Patrick]

Referring to the SSPX, Rev. Goering said:

[EddieArent]

SSPX = looks Catholic
Novus Ordo = looks Protestant

Hmmmm....why are the diocese so concerned with at most 100 faithful Catholics? Why aren't they sending warnings about all the sects in the area that possibly have 10x or more as many people and are truely heretics that are outside of the Church?

[tAnGo]

Of course, somebody needs (yet again) to point out that everywhere the SSPX is not accepted, the protestants, the jews, and the buddhists are.

Hypocrites.
_________________
Pray for the conversion of Catholics to Catholicism!

[Dolorosa]

But diocese officials worry the society is misleading faithful who believe the Mass is part of the Roman Catholic Church.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think it's more like the diocese officials are misleading the faithful into a new religion which is protestant with a meal table of celebration vice an altar of sacrifice.
_________________
http://romancatholicheroes.blogspot.com/

[aaron_brown99]

Is this the same guy who refused to allow a parishoner's deathbed request for a Requiem Mass recently?

Also, does anyone have news items or reports of "ecumenical" activity by N.O. staff in these areas? I would like to have examples to bring to the chancellor's attention when I call him.

Of course, I'm probably then going to have to go to confession for my uncharitable (read: violently abusive) conversation with them....

j/k

[Marybonita]

Words fail me in trying to address some of the odder statements by this priest of the NO rite:

[MariaCanadiensis]

Dear marybonita,

This old red herring has been around for many years, and was trotted out in parallel with the idea that peoples' desire for the old rite was based on mere sentimental nostalgia. The ability to say Mass in Latin was always there, along with the right to say it in any other language. Bishops would throw this crumb to the faithful to try to pacify them, completely, in my opinion, misreading the issue.

[meaculpa]

[murph]

[cliff petsch]

Apparently Fr. Goering does not know what Rome says about the situation. In a letter from Msgr Camille Perl from the office of Ecclesia Dei, Msgr. Perl states:
"1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X."
If the SSPX were truly schismatic, there would be no way a catholic could fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending their Mass.

Fr. Goering....... Quit your whining and go take it up with Rome!!!!!

[Canticle of Deborah]

[Rosary]

Funny how Traditon stands in the way,of the New Vatican ll ..Tradition,pure and simple nothing new,nothing re-introduced, nothing cast out,just plain and simple Tradition.
In SSPX, it happens in the Catholic faith with the Traditional(unchanged) Latin Tridentine Mass, families have "traditons of their own at the Hoildays or at the birthdays and it is all held good-
They did not start their own Faith or their own Church they have merely stuck with the Latin Mass...like the millions of priest before them. and for the record- a friend of ours in Michigan ,just had the Bishop of Lansing say and approve the Latin Tridetine Mass to be said in the Church there.. guess its all coming back,the Churches will pack,and the SSPX wonn't be looked down on for holding to Tradition !!!!!!!!!
When this Bishop said the Latin Tridentine High Mass,remarkably they shoved that old , New Ordo table off to the side ! Anyone know of any more such Traditional minded Bishops ???? Far or near ??????????

[gbcdoj]

cliff petsch, Canticle of Deborah,

[Br. Pio Francis]

[Canticle of Deborah]

[murph]

[Wessex]

Thankfully, in this neck of the woods, it appears there are no indult or FSSP 'solutions' to cloud the issue. The battleground is clear cut: the Church versus Newchurch!

[TNT]

.....Taizé for Brother Roger's funeral later today.

The Belfast Telegraph reports that although Roger Shultz was a Protestant, born in Switzerland, he will receive a Catholic funeral service in accordance with his own wishes.

From thread article:
The Fargo diocese issued a letter of caution regarding the Mass earlier this year. The Rev. Joseph Goering, diocese chancellor, attended the June service in Fargo and told Kimball he did not have authority to hear confessions.

“They are not acting within the communion of the Catholic Church,� Goering said. “It looks Catholic, but it is not in union with the Catholic Church.�

Pray tell, how would he know? If it looks catholic, what does that say for HIS "masses". They certainly do not "look" like an SSPX Mass!. The irony is soooo obvious.

The bishop of the Crookston diocese issued a similar statement last year after the society mailed postcards to Crookston residents. Bishop Victor Balke wrote a letter to the town’s newspaper explaining the church has not remained Roman Catholic.
When does newchurch publically use "ROMAN" ????? ONLY WHEN CHASTISING ROMAN CATHOLICS, PERIOD! I would be hard pressed to find it in all the 300million worthless words of VATII or JPII's bloated literary legacy...
This week, Balke said that members of the church would not be allowed to have a funeral Mass in the Crookston cathedral or any church in his jurisdiction.
Isn't that special! Who the heck in an SSPX parish would ask him to??. I guess you Fargo area SSPX will have to have your "catholic" funerals at TAIZE...only if you "wish it", which overcomes all Faith/belief obstacles.
_________________
God forgive you for what you have done on my behalf.

[TNT]

WHERE IS THE ECUMENICAL CHURCH OF THE CIVILIZATION OF LOVE, RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AND SUPREMACY-OF-CONSCIENCE WHEN YOU NEED THEM?
THEY CAN SURE GET DOGMATIC WHEN THEY FIND IT USEFUL. I THINK YOU CAN EVEN FIND THE ESSENCE OF THE ORIGINAL EENS MEANING BURIED IN HIS VITRIOL.

vit·ri·ol (vtr-l, -l)
a. See sulfuric acid.
Bitterly abusive feeling or expression.
_________________
God forgive you for what you have done on my behalf.

[AskStPhilomena]

[Requete]

We are definitely in the end of world times as per Matthew 24:44/DRV:

"44 Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come.
45 Who, thinkest thou, is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath appointed over his family, to give them meat in season.
***>>> 46 Blessed is that servant, whom when his lord shall come he shall find so doing.
47 Amen I say to you, he shall place him over all his goods.
***>>> 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord is long a coming:
***>>> 49 And shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and shall eat and drink with drunkards:
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day that he hopeth not, and at an hour that he knoweth not:
51 And shall separate him, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "

Maybe this is how the final days of these End Times are to be: a persecution of True Catholic Believers from within his own Church, by his own "servants".
Note that the above was mentioned AFTER the signs of the Second Coming, so as to make it very clear this must be the situation to happen.

[murph]

[Gillibrand1]

that closed 21% of their Churches.

[4lasthings]

[servitium]

[kibic]

GLBTQ
Every time I see this acronym they add another letter. I'm expecting them to add "B" and "P" soon for bestialist and pedophiles, then they can victimize or have their perverted sex on anything with an orafice.

Let us try replasing the whole acronym with S as for sodomites.
Especially in Sonoma county, Ca.
Nomen est omen.

[Peter]

T. Patrick wrote:
Referring to the SSPX, Rev. Goering said:

Quote:
It looks Catholic, but it is not in union with the Catholic Church.


I wish he would have continued with the thought: As opposed to the Novus Ordo which does not look Catholic, but is in union with the Catholic Church. It is frustrating why there is so much confusion these days.




T. Patrick you stated that the Novus Ordo does not look ( believe or act) Catholic. I don't disagree with you. But Christ tells us that we will know them by their fruits and a good tree does not bear bad fruit and bad tree does not bear good fruit. If we look at the fruit of the Vatican II NEW CHURCH it clearly has bore rotten fruit the past 40 years. Since Christ and his true Church are the Tree of life that we must never cut ourselves off from.....it would seem that the bad tree which is the Novus Ordo Church must be a man made imposter. Therefore it cannot be Catholic.

According to the Vatican II New Church it's ok if you deny Christ...no matter whether you are a protestant, pagan or jew, that's fine and dandy you can still be saved. The only thing the New Church views as sinful is going along with what Christ and His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church believed and worshiped over the past 2 thousand years.

Christ warned us to beware of Wolves in sheep clothing that come to mislead the elected. As Catholics we know that the elect are those Catholics that remain true to Christ and His True Church/Faith. The Vatican II New Church is teaching to us a New and Different Gospel than the Gospel of Christ, so therefore as Saint Paul stated they are anathema.

[Imperium_Hiberniam]

Let's face the facts.

This Fr. Groening will never read any protests of what he said on Angelqueen. Most likely, he will neverread anything here on Angelqueen. He is too tied into the Novus Ordo structure to care about anything we say here.

If we had the funds, we could buy up those 21 percent of the churches the Fargo Diocese is closing and turn them into Trad chapels. But Our Lord, for reasons He won't tell us about until Judgement Day, has said no.

As Stan Lee of Marvel Comics fame would say, "Nuff said."
_________________
{your signature here}

[Thumbs]

I know I'm repeating what others wrote here, but could you imagine a Bishop saying these exact same things about the Greeks or Russians Orthodox? Or about the Anglicans...LOL....Only Traditional Catholics are unacceptable to The New Religion!!!
_________________
Yes To Tradition, No To Rigorism !

[Count Tradula]

[magdalen]

Quote:
It looks Catholic, but it is not in union with the Catholic Church.


-

NO! NO! NO! The "New" Catholic Church is not in union with "The" Catholic Church!!!


I attend the indult mass; but, understand The SSPX is trying to maintain what the Catholic Church has taught for loosely 2,000 years before it went, "flooey."

Lord have mercy on us all!!!!

[T. Patrick]

Meaculpa and Peter: I agree with much of what you say. I meant my post as satirical. When I read the article and came across the statement about the Reverend stating that the SSPX Mass looks Catholic but is not in union with the Catholic Church, I saw much in that statement and considered posting a longer reply but just decided to limit it to what I did post. However, it seems that as long as the NO church has a white knuckled grip on VII, its doomed to contradiction. If you read and think about many public statements made by priests, bishops, etc., the contradictions are there or just under the surface.

I meant to juxtapose this statement: “It looks catholic, but it is not in union with the Catholic Church� with this statement As opposed to the Novus Ordo which does not look Catholic, but is in union with the Catholic Church. It is frustrating why there is so much confusion these days.

Such a juxtaposing shows the contradiction easily.

The more I read the more distressed I am with what has taken place and what continues to take place with the Church. I even bought Annibale Bugnini’s book on the reform of the mass - but, not because I think I might like it. I haven’t read it yet. However, I was intrigued by a recent article by George Weigel in which he cites Bugnini’s book and how when the Novus Ordo Mass was being designed, Bugnini and others were apparently sitting in a papal apartment with a stop watch trying out various approaches and trying to keep it under an hour. Weigel’s article was not complementary to Bugnini and seemed to be a shot at the Novus Ordo Mass - at least I took it that way.

I had a couple of thoughts on this: Many people have had problems with the Novus Ordo for a long time. How come Weigel is just now saying things which seems to validate their complaints?

The other is: Is this the only problem with the Novus Ordo Mass the fact that it was made with a stop watch?

Think of it. A stop watch! How reverent! I wish Mel Gibson would make a movie with a split screen showing his movie The Passion on one half and a movie of Bugnini (with stop watch in hand) and his cohorts on the other half . It would be a day and night difference.



My other thought is, why would any Catholic priest want to say a Mass other than according to what Christ started and continued by the Apostles? Even though Pope Pius V established the Latin Mass for all times with Quo Primum, I have read other sources that have said that the seasons of the Church and many of the liturgical readings were the same from the time of Charlemagne until VII. This was a about 1200 years! I am no expert and have more reading to do. However, it appears to me that even though there were twelve Apostles and there may have been some variations in the Masses that they said, the similarities were greater and it appears to me that Pope Pius V was faithful to the Mass said by the Apostles when he issued Quo Primum.

So why would any priest not want to say the Latin Mass - which I equate with the Mass of the Apostles?


http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius05/p5quopri.htm

[Byzantine Catholic]

Hello to all!

I am a former Protestant with a story which is very much like Scott Hahn's conversion experience.

My testimony for those who would like to read it:

THE LONG JOURNEY HOME

I am still learning and trying to understand all about the SSPX, Traditionalism, and the Novus Ordo Mass, however, I must take exception to one thing which was said in an earlier post:

[Tony]

[sgnofcross]

Hi Byzantine Catholic,

My problem with switching to the Byzantines it that little filioque issue. I truly believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as well as the Father. When Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto the Apostles in St. John's gospel, that is proof to me that the Holy Spirit proceeds from Him.

"When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost."

Latin Rite Nicene Creed says:

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Yours from Byzantine.net says:

And He will come again wit glory to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end. And in the Holy Spin the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, Who spoke through the Prophets. In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Churci I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead, and the life of th world to come. Amen.

http://www.byzantines.net/prayer/prayerinhome.htm#The%20Nicene%20Creed

BTW, someone on that website better change "Holy Spin" to "Holy Spirit."

This is a major problem I have with going over to the Byzantines. I could never deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son because I truly, truly believe it does.

[Byzantine Catholic]

So the original Nicene Creed was invalid for hundreds of years?

This raises some problems for me since I thought that the decisions of eccumenical councils were binding upon believers as being protected by the Holy Spirit from error.

On the other hand, if I understand correctly, the filioque was added sans concicular authority. That doesn't seem to be the correct was to address such a momentous issue, does it?

I am not trying to be divisive here. I am here to learn.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[AMDG]

[bibiana]

To deny the Fiioque is heresy.

[sgnofcross]

[AveMaria153]

I'm new here and usually just read the posts without joining in. I couldn't resist this time.

The comment "It LOOKS Catholic, but it is not in union with the Catholic Church" almost knocked me off my chair. The Tridentine Mass LOOKS Catholic, meaning what exactly? So what this guy is actually saying is that the TLM only "appears" Catholic, but it isn't really on the basis that it isn't in union with Rome. Therefore, the only conclusion that can be arrived at is that the TLM is not Catholic! That's really what's being said!!

It's when I see comments like this made by NO clergy I begin to understand the position of the "sedes". Heck, I attended a NO Mass last Sunday and came out of it understanding why the Sedes don't recognize the Pope. I sometimes feel what the faith is going through is parallel to the Passion of the Christ and I feel both are parallel to the consummation of the world itself.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

AveMaria153

[pascendi]

[hollingsworth]

A question directed specifically to gbcdoj, leaving all the word smithing aside for a moment- just a simple yes or no answer: Can a Catholic satisfy his Sunday Mass obligation by attendance at an SSPX chapel? Yes or No?

[AskStPhilomena]

Anyone fighting against the revolution will naturally upset the modernists in charge of most dioceses. Of course if you're HIV positive and wish to organize an interfaith prayer meeting, the cathedral is available - 24/7.

[AskStPhilomena]

Check this thread if you don't believe me...
http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3698
Bishops are willing to apologize to everyone except traditional Catholics and militant pro-lifers.

[Byzantine Catholic]

The link doesn't work.

Could you check it please?

Or post what it said if out of date.

Thank you.

Brother Ed

[T. Patrick]

From another thread: http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3660
There is no contradiction here is there?

Springs' Bishop Apologizes For Protestant Comments


10/21/05
The Associated Press


(AP) COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. Bishop Michael Sheridan has apologized for remarks by his assistant that Roman Catholics shouldn't attend Protestant worship services because they could "confuse" some Catholics.

Sheridan's executive assistant, Peter Howard, also told The Gazette of Colorado Springs this week that Catholic participation in Protestant services denigrates the Catholic faith. He made similar comments in an Oct. 7 article in the diocesan newspaper.

In a letter regarding Howard's comments to The Gazette, Sheridan said Howard is free to express his views but said he doesn't agree with them.

"Nevertheless, I am deeply sorry for any hurt or insult that has been experienced, and I humbly ask that all men and women of good will accept my apology," wrote Sheridan, who last year suggested that those who vote for Catholic politicians who contradict church positions should refrain from taking Communion.

Some of the diocese's 130,000 Catholics attend both Protestant and Catholic services. New Life Church, a large church led by National Association of Evangelical president Ted Haggard, is believed to attract thousands of Catholics every weekend. Howard's column in the diocesan newspaper, entitled "Why Not Attend New Life?" was meant to address that.

"Such 'active participation' in a Protestant liturgical service, therefore, acts contrary to our faith which professes fundamentally different beliefs in critical ecclesiological and theological areas," Howard wrote.

The Rev. Karl Useldinger, diocesan chancellor and judicial vicar, said the Catholic church allows its adherents to participate in other Christian services as long as they don't take part in another church's sacraments and continue to attend Catholic Mass.

Michael Ciletti, deacon for St. Francis of Assisi Parish, said Howard was "dead wrong" in his column.

"I think to have a column like that sends the wrong kind of message," he said. "I think it's an insult."