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ecumenicaltraddie · † Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 705

Vatican official foresees broader use of Latin Mass

Rome, Sep. 26 (CWNews.com) - An influential Vatican official believes that Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) could soon expand permission for priests throughout the world to celebrate Mass using the Tridentine rite.

However, Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez cautions that serious doctrinal issues, as well as liturgical questions, must be resolved before the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) can be fully reconciled with the Holy See.

Cardinal Medina, the former prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, is a member of the Ecclesia Dei commission, set up by Pope John Paul II (bio - news) to serve the needs of Catholics who cling to the Latin Mass. In an interview with the I Media news service, the Chilean-born prelate said that the Pope could act soon to liberalize Church regulations, allowing all priests to use the Tridentine rite.

Questioned about the outcome of the Pope's August 29 meeting with Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior general of the SSPX, Cardinal Medina observed that the meeting was preceded by "many other contacts" between Vatican officials and representatives of the Lefebvrist group. Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos (bio - news), the prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy, had met repeatedly with Bishop Fellay, he said. And the Chilean prelate added that he, too, had met with the traditionalist leader during his term as prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship.

Consequently, the cardinal said, "you could not say that they meeting with the Holy Father was unexpected." He added that SSPX leaders are well aware that Pope Benedict "is concerned about full communion among all Catholics-- all Christians-- and particularly those who uphold the decisions and positions of Archbishop Lefebvre."

Reconciliation between the Vatican and the breakaway traditionalist group, the cardinal continued, would require "addressing a list of doctrinal difficulties." He said that a working group could be set up to discuss those problems.

"But within the Society [SSPX], there are different currents," Cardinal Medina observed. While some members of the traditionalist group are "inflexible," others are more inclined toward dialogue with Rome, he said. He said that when some traditionalists refer to the Novus Ordo Mass as "heretical" or "invalid," they create "an extremely difficult situation." The Vatican will insist that SSPX members acknowledge the validity of the post-conciliar Mass, he said; they will also be required to accept the teachings of Vatican II.

After his meeting with Pope Benedict, Bishop Fellay suggested that a first step toward reconciliation could be a Vatican recognition of the right for all priests to celebrate the Tridentine-rite Mass, using the liturgical form codified by Pope Pius V after the Council of Trent. Cardinal Medina saw "no difficulty" in expanding access to the Latin Mass. But he reiterated that such a step 'would not resolve the fundamental problems with the SSPX."

Questioned on whether Vatican II intended to abolish the Tridentine rite, Cardinal Medina said that the arguments were inconclusive on that point. However, he said, each rite is valid, and "the missal of St. Paul V and that of Paul VI are both perfectly orthodox." He observed that each ritual appeals to "different sensibilities," and noted that the Offertory prayers of the old rite are particularly useful in their emphasis on "the sacrifical character of the Mass: an essential aspect of the Eucharistic celebration." The restoration of universal permission to use the Tridentine Mass would involve canonical and liturgical questions, but no major theological concerns, the cardinal said. "So I hope that, little by little, the possibility of celebrating the old form of the Roman rite will be opened," he said.

As a member of the Ecclesia Dei commission, Cardinal Medina reported, he is sometimes asked to celebrate a Tridentine-rite Mass. When he receives such a request, he said, "I do it, without asking anyone's permission."

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JDobbs · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject:

JMJ

Please God!

btw, Cardinal Medina is one of the few good men in scarlet. He spoke very forcefully on the Terri Schiavo murder. He should have been the new head of CDF, in my fallible opinion.
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Augustine · † Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1338

So let's get to it; a universal indult and liberty of the Mass and a serious discussion of the doctrinal issues.

One question remains: Wasn't a second condition for further negotiation to be the lifting of the excommunications of Archbishop Lefebvre and the bishops?

This is only good news, though much tough work remains.

Bishop Fellay has the terrible task of discerning and doing God's will. He needs our prayers now more than ever.

May the result be what God wants, and not just what He will allow!

adaltaredei · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 220

Well this certainly is wonderful news. It seems that the Vatican is slowly preparing the way for release of the mass in the press based on all these "speculative" reports we have been hearing over the last couple weeks. Perhaps the Holy Father has something in mind for the Eucharistic Congress next month. Let us hope and pray...that would be (along with the instruction against ordaining homosexuals) the first real step towards restoring the Church from Rome that I have seen in my lifetime.

Haurietis Aquas · † Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 2324 Location: Mid-West

JDobbs · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject:

Augustine · † Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1338

ecumenicaltraddie · † Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 705

Vatican II "in light of Tradition" was the original agreement signed by Archbishop Lefebvre. From Vatican II, it was only insisted that Lumen Gentium No. 25 be received as an article of Faith, which is only a reiteration of Vatican I, quite traditional.

Number 1. Don't read too much doctrinally into press reports. The insistence has always been Vatican "in light of Tradition."

Number 2. Wouldn't it be better for the SSPX bishops and theologians to help the Church interpret Vatican II "from within" and shape the future of the Church rather than doing their own theology on their own?

It appears that Bishop Fellay and a good number within the SSPX think so. The lifting of the excommunications cannot be far behind. That would be nothing more than what has been done for the Orthodox by Pope Paul VI.

davidj · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 114

This pieces of news, ahead of a possible announcement by the Holy See, is very encouraging indeed. From a Cardinal this time, no less! Please, God willing, may this come true, and soon!

It is also very encouraging the frequency of contacts between the SSPX and the Roman curia - Bishop Fellay has described such contacts in recent years. I sincerely hope they continue, and an objective review of the differences (or liberal reforms since the council) takes place.

It is a little worrying, though, that the Vatican is insisting that the SSPX not just declare that the <i>Novus Ordo</i> is valid (it has never denied it), but that it "accept the teachings of Vatican II" - SSPX'ers will rightly interpret this as "surrender"! Perhaps accepting Vatican II was "a council of the Church", but no more, in my opinion.

Augustine · † Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1338

pax · Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 188

We should pray now more than ever that news like this continue! I'll take this over any modern liberal crap we hear day in an day out. If our Holy Father continues along these lines he'll be a martyr very soon.
Clap

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adaltaredei · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 220

MilesChristi · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 188 Location: Germany

Well, just look at the groups that wanted to discuss VII from "within" (as if the SSPX were outside of the Church !!!):

FSSP - silenced, humiliated, with several of their priests celebrating the protestantized Mass

Christ the King - silenced

Campos - Bishop Castro MayerÂ´s heritage being destroyed by traitor Bishop Rifan, who has concelebrated in a number of situations

I donÂ´t think Bishop Fellay will fall into this mousetrap. Not with the example he sees of the above mentioned groups, which are little more than "charismas" co-existing with Judaizers like Neo-Catechumenate or Opus Dei, the Charismatics etc.

bibiana · † Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 1267

It is not permitted to deny our Holy Faith in order to have access to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

tAnGo · † Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 602

ok, so great. universal indult.

when's rome gonna finally get rid of the novus ordo?
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Gillibrand1 · † Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 811 Location: Brussels

Amado de Dios · Joined: 13 May 2005 Posts: 123 Location: TJ

spikepaga · Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 461 Location: Houston. TX

This would be a miracle as long as after giving the indult BXVI does not decide to "update" the 1962 missal, or to allow liturgical "freedoms" .....

bibiana · † Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 1267

It is NOT permissible to deny our Holy Faith to gain access to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. or for any other reason, for that matter.

Tony · Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 830 Location: Toronto

KateT · † Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 725

Br. Pio Francis · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 320 Location: Canada

Haurietis Aquas · † Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 2324 Location: Mid-West

Tony · Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 830 Location: Toronto

adaltaredei · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 220

AskStPhilomena · † Joined: 03 Aug 2004 Posts: 3362

There won't be any problem acknowledging that the new Mass can be validly offered. As for Vatican 2, I suspect the wording will be along the lines of "a valid council of the Church for pastoral purposes". The obvious fact that Vatican 2 was an abyssmal failure will be quietly ignored. Of most interest will be the doctrinal discussions. Hopefully those arguing for the Vatican will be given the grace to see the complete farce that is ecumania, so they're able to retreat without egg all over their faces.

Land of the Irish · † Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 5717

murph · † Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 2840

murph · † Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 2840

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

gbcdoj · † Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 809

servitium,

pascendi · † Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 7071 Location: San Diego

servitium · Joined: 07 Feb 2004 Posts: 7809

yeeck · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:16 pm Post subject:

Based on what Pope Paul VI did for the schismatic Greeks by "lifting" the excommunications of 1054, I do not see what good it could do for the SSPX since the schismatic Greeks are still outside the Church.

But if it's a nullification of the excommunications of 1988, then yes I would agree it is different. However, do you think most Catholics can tell the difference between the two?

Land of the Irish · † Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 5717

murph · † Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 2840

Augustine · † Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1338

murph · † Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 2840

JDobbs · Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:37 am Post subject:

Augustine · † Joined: 15 Sep 2005 Posts: 1338

man with black hat · Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 33

man with black hat: Critical Mass: When is an indult not an indult?
http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2005/09/critical-mass-when-is-indult-not.html

Jean · † Joined: 21 Feb 2005 Posts: 3148 Location: Canada

In this age of Instant Communications, we find it most Peculiar that Headlines should read:"UNIVERSAL INDULT SOON!" when that Universal Indult has already been Proclaimed, Sanctioned in Perpetuity, Formally Ordered by a CANONIZED SAINT POPE Exactly 435 years, 2 months and 8 days ago!!! (i.e. July 19, 1570).This new Vatican Exercise reminds me of GMC 'Experts' Re-inventing the WHEEL!!!
WHEN is the Vatican going to get busy doing its REAL JOB of Building up the Church and SAVING COUNTLESS IMMORTAL SOULS BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BY OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED?...
Will this happen Only after the Belated Consecration of Russia? Kyrie Eleison...

Tony · Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Posts: 830 Location: Toronto

ecumenicaltraddie · † Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 705

man with black hat · Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 33

Haurietis Aquas · † Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 2324 Location: Mid-West

Bellarmine2005 · Joined: 23 Sep 2005 Posts: 1004 Location: Mid-West

I pray that Bishop Fellay moves very slowly with New Rome. It is they who must return to the fullness of Catholic tradition. God help us if the SSPX capitulates even in the smallest degree with the novelties of the neo-modernists. Further, why is it that the Vatican has to force people into accepting the orthodoxy of the Novus Ordo and Vatican II? Shouldn't the Novus Ordo on its own be sufficient, after all, no one has ever questioned the orthodoxy of the Traditional Latin Mass? Perhaps people wouldn't struggle with the Second Vatican Council Could if much of it didn't contradict the Catholic faith as it existed prior to the council. Need proof, see what previous popes have written. Remember, the pope's role is to defend the faith as it was given him by Christ and the Apostles not to bring to light new doctrine. And can anyone tell me why any priest needs permission to say a Mass that was never abrogated? The Vatican can pretend all they want that the matter was unclear. Only the foolish believes everything that comes out of the Vatican without question. I, for one, am pleased to disobey disobedience to God. I thank God that I am no longer attending the Novus Ordo service.

ecumenicaltraddie · † Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 705

Fr. Duvellius, Indianapolis, Indiana

Want to bet me? He does NOT offer the Novus Ordo. I have a friend whose family attends that parish DAILY.

In fact, all of the schoolchildren at the "Novus Ordo" school attend the TLM and know ALL of the responses in Latin!

Do you know the theological studies taking place with both the FSSP and the ICKSP in conjunction with the Vatican II in order to gain a proper interpretation of Vatican II?

Nah ... don't need to. Actions speak louder than words.

So, you know what theological studies are going on with the ICKSP and the FSSP? You ever read Fr. Chad Ripperger's stuff? Just because they don't make public pronouncements (which is NOT how theology is done in the history of the Church!) does not mean they are not being done. Are you "on the inside" of what goes on with the FSSP and the ICKSP, or do you rely upon the Remnant and Catholic Family news solely for your interpretation of things?

I rely upon the Church and her official teachings.

As for your

Haurietis Aquas · † Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Posts: 2324 Location: Mid-West

Bonaventure · Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 597

RESIDUUM REVERTETUR....... Nod